Topic on Talk:Talk pages project/Replying/Flow

T263902: Enable Reply Tool to use context-specific indentation syntax

This feedback comes from w:ja:Wikipedia:井戸端/subj/返信ツールをベータ機能として導入する提案.

Per phab:T252708 indentation is always done by : and there are different expectations in ruwiki. jawiki also has different expectations, described as follows.

• w:ja:H:TP (help page on talk pages) expects : for talk pages in general.
• w:ja:WP:TPG (guideline on talk pages) also expects : for talk pages in general, except deletion discussions where * is used.
• w:ja:Wikipedia:削除依頼 and w:ja:Wikipedia:投稿ブロック依頼 (request for deletion and request for block) expect *.

The exceptions in request for deletion and request for block are likely because these discussions include votes. The difference between this context and the votes/polls context described in phab:T252708#6149739 is that comments are always expected in these votes. So they are more like comments that always start with a vote template, than a mere yes/no poll. Note that this is not specific to jawiki, and there are similar expectations described in w:en:WP:DISCUSSAFD and w:zh:WP:AFD.

If Reply Tool is to fulfill these expectations, then phab:T259864 (Enable wikis to customize the syntax used to indent comments) does not fully solve the issue as jawiki uses both : and *. The solution suggested by User:Keruby in jawiki's discussion is to allow users to choose the indentation in the Advanced menu of Reply Tool. I am not sure if this is straightforward enough for less experienced users, but I do not have another solution yet.

@ネイthe level of detail you have provided here is wonderful. It helps us clearly understand what is prompting this feedback.

A question for you: what – if any – negative consequences could you foresee with the Reply Tool enabling wikis to set exceptions for what indentation syntax was used on specific pages instead of individual people being able to decide this on a per comment basis? [i]

By the way, here is the Phabricator ticket where will think through how we might approach this: T263902.

Thank you for relaying the feedback to the team.

As an answer to your question, taking the former approach would mean that

1. Reply Tool will be aligning the indents used by all users (who use the tool) to the same syntax. Hence, some users might not be able to reply with the indent they are more used to.
2. Per w:en:WP:DISCUSSAFD, Comments are started and replied with * but expanded with :. Not sure if there are similar cases elsewhere, but it would mean Reply Tool will not cater to such cases where both indents are used in the same page.

For both cases there will be some users (may or may not be a majority) who think these are negative consequences.

These answers are helpful, @ネイ – thank you for taking the time to share them; I'm sorry it's taken this long for me to respond back.

I'd like to share how we are currently understanding of the issue you are describing (see the "Situation" section below) and what we are planning to do in response (see the "Next steps" section below).

Situation

• For a large number of discussions, on a large number of pages, on a large number of wikis, it is customary for the people to indent the comments they post with :.
• With the above said, there are clear and important exceptions to the above. Deletion discussions at the Chinese, English and Japanese Wikipedias for example specify that "comments" in these conversations have * prepended to them, instead of : as is done in discussions on other pages.
• While it is true that in these deletion discussions opinions or votes be prepended with * , it is important that it be possible to reply to these "opinions" or "votes" with comments that start with : .
• The way the Reply Tool is currently designed (see: T252708), prevents people from commenting in the aforementioned deletion discussions without breaking the conventions/guidelines wikis follow.

Next steps

Assuming the "Situation" section above accurately and exhaustively describes the issue(s) you are making us aware of @ネイ, here is what we'd like to do, *for now*:

1) Resist the draw of enhancing the Reply Tool to support more nuanced syntax customization and

2) Continue accumulating examples^[1] of the voting-style discussions you cited in this conversation (if/when you think of more examples, we would value you telling us!)

I think doing so will give us the opportunity for us to gather the broad and representative sample of the voting-style conversations that happen across wikis we'll need to design a dedicated tool [and potentially, implement new syntax] that will enable a range of editors, across experience levels, to participate in voting-style conversations that comply with project conventions with more ease.^[2]

We recognize that in suggesting the above we are also saying that, for the time being, it will be more difficult to use the Reply Tool in the kinds of voting-style conversations you mentioned above.^[3] We are comfortable with making this trade-off in the near term in service of creating an intuitive voting-style tool in the longer term.*

Please let me know if anything I've shared above brings to mind new comments or questions.

*Note: we do not have any concrete plans for when work on this voting-style tool is to begin.