Topic on Talk:Talk pages project/Flow

This is the list of the initial feedback people at the Hungarian Wikipedia have shared. Thank you, @Samat for pulling all this information together...

1. task T245890: extend the tool to the non-talk pages
2. task T249391: enable people to customize the edit summary that accompanies their reply
3. task T249072: add a tool of special characters to the forthcoming Reply tool's toolbar.
4. task T249579: it can be difficult to understand how comments relate to one another; this is especially difficult in longer conversations.
5. task T249579: it can be difficult to tell comments apart from one another.
6. task T249578: it can be difficult to notice the "Reply" link.
7. task T249886: enable people to use the "Reply" tool to post a comment that is not indented.
8. task T249889: enable people to sign a (complex, multi-line or formatted) comment in the new line
9. task T245225: enable people to edit or modify an already published comment.
10. task T232601: enable people to ping or notify the editor whose comment is answered.
11. Resolved: when composing a long comment, the text is jumping/jiggling quickly.
12. task T240257: Replying tool cannot restore the inserted text in the event of browser crash/OS restart/accidental closed tab etc.
13. task T249577: the tool does not always appear on longer talk pages (multiple times).
14. task T234403: enable people to change between the source code and graphical interface during editing.

Hi!

Thank you for your work for this tool!

I try to summarize the comments and suggestions of the beta testers on the Hungarian Wikipedia.

1. Editors expressed a request to extend the tool to the non-talk pages (discussion pages in the Project namespace, in our case) = T245890
2. Request for an option for edit summary = T249391
3. Request for a tool of special characters (similar which is used in the wikitext editor now) = T249072
4. For longer conversations (especially with several participants) it is practically impossible to find out for which comment somebody answered --> indicate this information (on the planned visual surface?)
5. For longer or formatted comments it is not easy to see where is the end of one comment and where the next one starts --> boxes or clear visual separation would be useful (actually, Flow/SD works well here in this sense)
6. Highlight the Reply link to find it, it looks like part of the signature many times (button style?)
7. Option for fitting the text to the left without indentation (it is quite commonly used)
8. Option to sign a (complex, multi-line or formatted) comment in the new line.
9. Option to edit or modify an already published comment.
10. Option to ping or notify the editor whose comment is answered
11. If the answer is longer than the place in the pre-formatted text box, the text is jumping/jiggling quickly as the scroll bar appears and disappears (apparently, this bug was resolved since the box becomes resized with longer text now)
12. Unlike in case of the normal wikitext editor, this one cannot restore the inserted text in the event of browser crash/OS restart/accidental closed tab etc.
13. There is a reported case, where the tool does not always appears on longer talk pages (multiple times). This is now under investigation in order to make it reproducible.
14. As soon as we have the graphical interface for the tool, an option to change between the source code and graphical interface during editing.

You can find most of the comments here (in Hungarian), and one of the testing of the tool here.

Please feel free to ask questions if you need details or explanation about the issues above.

Please feel free to start Phabricator tickets for these issues or indicate the ticket where it exists already.

Samat, you had another finding on my talk page: considering that the concept of this solution is indentation, using manual indentation (aka colon) in the beginning of the very first line of any reply must not be allowed (unless there is any other visual aid besides indentation to understand at a quick glance what comment is replied with a new comment).

I hope that point 4) will be implemented, and then we do not have to think on how can we avoid hacking the system (which is very easy now). (Manual indentation can be useful in some cases, if it does not mislead the conversation.)

About point #4, is the difficulty that you reply to someone (and you know whom you're replying to, because you know which Reply button you clicked), but I (reading everything later) can't figure it out?

Exactly. I know that you already saw: already in Pasztilla's test, it is not easy to find out this in case of the bottom comments. We have much longer conversations on discussion pages, where you need to scroll, and even if you have a ruler in your hand, it is not easy :) If somebody uses a formatted paragraph or lists for example, it is already not easy to understand even if they are close to each others.

I understand, that this is a clean solution for the software, but humans don't typically follow algorithms :) I haven't made research on this topic, but I believe that we tend to add comments and replies below each others without indentations, and if somebody would reply to an earlier comment in the middle of a conversation, they use indentation and insert the reply just below the actual comment. That way the directly connected conversations stay closer to each others, and easier to follow for others read them later.

I can say, that quite much the same how this surface works right now.

@Samat it is wonderful to see all of the feedback in one place – thank you for bringing everyone's feedback together!

I, like @Whatamidoing (WMF), have a few follow up questions. I am going to post these questions in separate posts below*.

Before this, I've done two things:

1. Added the Phabricator tickets you've linked (thank you) to this discussion thread's "Summary."
2. Added responses to some of the feedback you shared below.

Comments on feedback

9. Option to edit or modify an already published comment.

This is functionality we've started working on in task:T245225. Although, we are not able to share a specific date for if/when this will be enabled. More details about the status of this work can be found here: T242562#5977993.

11. If the answer is longer than the place in the pre-formatted text box, the text is jumping/jiggling quickly as the scroll bar appears and disappears

We're glad to hear this is no longer an issue. Although, if you or others notice this happening, please let us know.

12. Unlike in case of the normal wikitext editor, this one cannot restore the inserted text in the event of browser crash/OS restart/accidental closed tab etc.

We are investigating this. See: task:T240257.

13. There is a reported case, where the tool does not always appears on longer talk pages (multiple times). This is now under investigation in order to make it reproducible.

We are investigating this. See: task:T249577

13. There is a reported case, where the tool does not always appears on longer talk pages (multiple times). This is now under investigation in order to make it reproducible.

We are investigating this. See: task:T249577

@Samat I think we have resolved the issue above. I'm going to comment in the original thread [i] to be sure.

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i. https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikip%C3%A9dia:Konzult%C3%A1ci%C3%B3_a_vitalapokr%C3%B3l_%C3%A9s_a_k%C3%B6z%C3%B6ss%C3%A9gi_kommunik%C3%A1ci%C3%B3r%C3%B3l&type=revision&diff=22444702&oldid=22433317&diffmode=source

1. Editors expressed a request to extend the tool to the non-talk pages (discussion pages in the Project namespace, in our case) = T245890

@Samat: what do you think about using the presence of __NEWSECTIONLINK_as the signal for whether people can use the Reply tool on pages outside of talk namespaces on hu.wiki?

I ask considering there seems to be a relatively small number of pages on hu.wiki using __NEWSECTIONLINK__. See: Speciális:Keresés.

I am not completely sure yet. I've checked the pages where we use this magic word now, and majority of them are not real discussion pages. If the decision will be, that the __NEWSECTIONLINK__ is connected to the Reply tool, we need to reconsider how we use it and clean up the wiki before we introduce this feature.

(Thank you very much for organizing and summarizing our comments, and for working on them! I will continue answering the questions tomorrow: I need to sleep a little bit before...)

This makes sense. I think it will be best for us to continue this conversation on the ticket where the conversation about__NEWSECTIONLINK__ being implemented is happening.

As such, I've coped the comment above over to said ticket: T245890#6038413.

(Sounds great and you bet ^ _^ )

hey @Samat – quick update: the Reply tool should now be available on pages that contain the following wikitext: __NEWSECTIONLINK_

4. For longer conversations (especially with several participants) it is practically impossible to find out for which comment somebody answered --> indicate this information (on the planned visual surface?)

5. For longer or formatted comments it is not easy to see where is the end of one comment and where the next one starts --> boxes or clear visual separation would be useful (actually, Flow/SD works well here in this sense).

@Samat: are you able to ask the person/people who shared this feedback (@Pasztilla, maybe it was you?) for a link to the talk page(s)/conversation that inspired this thought.

I've written how I am understanding their feedback below and I want to be doubly sure we (this person/these people) are thinking about this similarly!

What I am understanding "4." and "5." above to mean:

A) It can be difficult to understand how comments relate to one another; this is especially difficult in longer conversations..

B) It can be difficult to tell comments apart from one another.

It was a conclusion of the quick test we made together with Pasztilla on his discussion page.

4 or A) tries to describe the situation, when the comment and reply to that comment are in a larger distance, and it is difficult to find out the relation or connection.

5 or B) tries to describe the situation, when the following comments have formatted text and/or links, and they look like as one comment.

Did you mean the same?

Point 4. is more critical: on community discussion pages one section can be several pages long, and if somebody answers to the first person, their answer will be sooo far, that nobody can find out that it is an answer for the first person. I think (and others have the same opinion), that type of indentation is not the right approach, see my explanation in my answer to Whatamidoing above. And we didn't try out yet what happens after 100 replies in a conversations (if the indentation should be wider than the page itself). I think the logic what Flow/Structured discussions use here is more suitable for the wiki environment.

4 or A) tries to describe the situation, when the comment and reply to that comment are in a larger distance, and it is difficult to find out the relation or connection.

Understood! I suspect this is an issue we will address when we begin working on visual improvements to talk pages. In the meantime, I've represented what you've reported on this ticket where we are gathering information: T249579.

Please let me know if you think the ticket could be made more clear.

5 or B) tries to describe the situation, when the following comments have formatted text and/or links, and they look like as one comment.

Are you able to share an example of the kind of comments you have in mind? I didn't see, what looked like the kind of comment you were describing on Pasztilla's discussion page. In the meantime, I've added this issue to that same ticket where we are gathering information about the visual improvements we will explore later in this project: T249579.

7. Option for fitting the text to the left without indentation (it is quite commonly used)

@Samat: this sounds like [1] people are requesting the ability to start a "new" discussion thread within an existing section by posting a comment that is not indented at all...am I understanding this correctly? And if so, are you able to describe the scenario(s) when functionality like this would be useful? Even better if you are able to share links to specific conversations where people are posting comments within existing discussions that are not indented.

1. https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikip%C3%A9dia%3AKonzult%C3%A1ci%C3%B3_a_vitalapokr%C3%B3l_%C3%A9s_a_k%C3%B6z%C3%B6ss%C3%A9gi_kommunik%C3%A1ci%C3%B3r%C3%B3l&type=revision&diff=22425422&oldid=22425327

Yes, this is what Pasztilla mentioned in that comment. The situation is, when somebody would like to say something about the topic (described in the section title), but their comment is not a direct reply to anybody.

More generally, there are two basic types of usage of indentation in the wikitext conversations: one is always reply with one more semicolon (more indentation), and the other, which never (or rarely) uses and answers without any indentation. I personally use a mix of these two approaches :)

Thank you for clarifying this, @Samat. This is clear to me know. I've created a ticket for this issue which you can see here: T249886. I've also updated the conversation "Summary" to include this ticket.

8. Option to sign a (complex, multi-line or formatted) comment in the new line.

@Samat: is the "example" below what you understand people to be requesting? If so, why do you think people might be requesting this functionality? If they are easy to locate, it would be great to see a link to a conversation where people are posting comments in this way.

Example

: The first line of my comment.

: The second line of my comment.

: The third line of my comment.

: The fourth line of my comment.

: PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 01:10, 7 April 2020 (UTC) (reply)

Exactly. For example I use that formatting quite often, see for example the actual sections on the News village pump:

• development of the discussion pages
• editathon about the Roma culture
• new blog posts in the Hungarian Wikipedia Magazine.

I choose this type of formatting if the comment is longer, has more paragraphs or a list. In this case, it is closed visually better and it makes very clear that this is a block of comment, if the signature is in a new line. For example, if I signed it at the end of the last element of the list, it would look like I answered the previous paragraph (where somebody forgot the signature) because of the indentation.

The links you shared made what you were describing abundantly clear...thank you for sharing them, @Samat.

I've created a ticket for this issue (T249889) and added it to the "Summary" above.

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A separate, but related question: have you gotten feedback from other people that adding your signature on a separate line helps them read your comments more easily? If so, do you recall what they've said? Please don't worry if nothing comes to mind.

I've posted a "work around" method for achieving this in a comment at phab:T249889. It was inspired by seeing this edit.

I posted another workaround at the same phab ticket.

Like Samat, I will usually sign on a new line if I'm making a multi-para comment, and same-line if single paragraph. I feel it's more readable but haven't received any feedback for or against.

Or I thought I did. My comment there seems to have disappeared. Maybe I somehow closed/lost the tab without hitting Submit?

10. Option to ping or notify the editor whose comment is answered.

@Samat: this seems to be one of the the comments where this feedback surfaced...are you able to figure out which of the following people are requesting?

1. An easier to way notify someone else (e.g. by @ mentioning them)
2. An easier way to be notified when someone else responds to you
3. Both of the above? Something else entirely?

Option 1. Several editors asked if the answered person (whom reply link was clicked on) receives a notification. Pagony suggested here that that person should be automatically (without using @ or similar) notified, but I don't think it is a good idea, because it would result in extreme noise. But an easy option for that (like @ here) would be useful, indeed.

Note: Pagony also requested in the linked comment an option for choosing if the answer arrives the replied person's talk page or stays on the original talk page. I left this request out from the list above, because I think this does not fit to the direction of this development.

I agree that automated pinging would raise the noise level, and we rather would need to serve existing user behaviors for such cases: 1) direct ping in the reply (already possible with the tool), 2) ping in the edit summary (would be possible by enabling edit summary option).

Thank you for filling in the details here, @Samat and @Pasztilla.

Introducing an easier way to notify someone specific (read: ping or @ mention) is a feature we are planning to introduce in Version 2.0 of the Reply tool.

In fact, the design of this functionality is something we are actively talking about here. If either of you (or anyone else!) has thoughts to share, we would value you sharing them in this conversation. You can also follow our work implementing this functionality in this task: T232601.

Now, on the topic of being notified when someone responds to you...

I think we would need to do more research before we implementing a feature that makes it so people are automatically notified anytime someone responds to something they have said. And this is research we plan to do as part of our effort to make it easier for people to stay up-to-date about conversations that are relevant to them. We are tracking this work in this task: T233447.

On this broader topic of notifications...

@Samat / @Pasztilla: how do you typically find out someone is requesting your input? Updates on your watchlist? Echo notifications? Something else?

One more suggestion came into my mind: an option for Thank a comment (without using the Page history) would be very useful. It is often used to indicate that we read the comment, if we do not want to answer it. Or just for traditionally saying thank you for it :)

I missed out several positive comments about the new Reply tool. I wanted to share with you what are the suggestions and requests, but positive feedback is feedback as well. For example it handles well the edit conflicts or the unnecessary empty lines. Or the preview is accurate and works smoothly. It is not the case that it received only negative comments :)

...an option for Thank a comment (without using the Page history) would be very useful. It is often used to indicate that we read the comment, if we do not want to answer it. Or just for traditionally saying thank you for it :)

I'm glad you raised this idea, @Samat! This is something we've been wanting to explore and you saying something about it is the prompt I needed to file a task: T249893.

I missed out several positive comments about the new Reply tool. I wanted to share with you what are the suggestions and requests, but positive feedback is feedback as well.

I appreciate you saying this, @Samat – I will pass it on to the rest of the team who will be glad to hear it ^ _ ^

Thank you again for the work you're doing to inspire people to share their feedback and bring it to us here.