Talk:Flow/2017 community feedback concerning URLs format

This page is about how to change URLs format to make them human-readable.

Please keep this discussion in the scope of URLs formats for Flow. Any other feedback concerning Flow is welcome at Talk:Flow.

The discussion is in English, but we welcome feedback in any language.

The proposals miss that there are wikis with non-latin scripts and the urls are not not really human readable

Taking as example an existing section link in elwiki non-Flow village pump, the url is https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B9%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1:%CE%91%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AC#.CE.91.CE.BB.CE.BB.CE.B1.CE.B3.CE.AD.CF.82_.CF.83.CF.84.CE.BF.CF.85.CF.82_.CE.B4.CE.B9.CE.B1.CE.B3.CE.BB.CF.89.CF.83.CF.83.CE.B9.CE.BA.CE.BF.CF.8D.CF.82_.CF.83.CF.85.CE.BD.CE.B4.CE.AD.CF.83.CE.BC.CE.BF.CF.85.CF.82._.CE.A4.CE.BF_.CE.B2.CE.BB.CE.AD.CF.80.CE.B5.CE.B9_.CE.BA.CE.AC.CF.80.CE.BF.CE.B9.CE.BF.CF.82_.CE.AC.CE.BB.CE.BB.CE.BF.CF.82.3B

Browser address bar displays a readable form up to the section part, but when it is pasted in an edit box or displayed in a page it is not human readable.

Taking as example an existing flow topic in user talk page these are the urls:

1. Topic:Topicname@Pagename/UUID: https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic:%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF:%CE%9A%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%84%CE%AF_%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CE%BD_%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%8D_%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%85@%CE%A3%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7_%CF%87%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7:Geraki/Ti11vwprij2he4mg

2. Topic:Topicname-UUID@Pagename:

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic:%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF:%CE%9A%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%84%CE%AF_%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CE%BD_%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%8D_%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%85-Ti11vwprij2he4mg@%CE%A3%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7_%CF%87%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7:Geraki

3. Topic:UUID/Pagename/Topic:

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic:Ti11vwprij2he4mg/%CE%A3%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7_%CF%87%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7:Geraki/%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF:%CE%9A%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%84%CE%AF_%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CE%BD_%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%8D_%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%85

(keep in mind that the username is in latin script. a non-latin username would result in even bigger urls)

4. The current url is https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic:Tizm73nml0pv0ff0

So if the the plan is to change the current url "to have something more descriptive that will give more context to users", the question should be "where/when it will give this more context?":

• When the user is already on the topic page, the topic title and page title are displayed on the top of the page itself
• When the url is copy&pasted in another page it is not human readable in any way.

Keep it like it is.

Thank you for your feedback.

That change will make URLs a little bit confusing on the browser's URL bar (if the browser doesn't displays encoded URLs), but that will change how links are displayed on wikipages.

On a page like that one, Topic:Tizm73nml0pv0ff0 would be replaced with Topic:Tizm73nml0pv0ff0/Συζήτηση_χρήστη:Geraki/Πρότυπο:Κουτί_πληροφοριών_ποδοσφαιρικού_συλλόγου if the format used is Topic:UUID/Page/Topic format. That would be more readable.

But then, the question is about the link text and not the url.

In Special:EditWatchlist#editwatchlist-ns2600 I already see Topic titles instead of Topic:UUID.

For this Topic I see:

• Non latin page/topic titles (history)

Just make it Topic @ Page and keep linking to the current, unchangeable and unique url. Then make all special pages do the same thing.

On the other hand if one is to link to some topic in a content page, they will probably just copy&past the url because anything else will probably be more complex. Test case: If I need to link to this topic all I needed was to copy&paste the url (or cut it as a plain internal link Topic:Tizm73nml0pv0ff0 or piped). If we would use the Topic:Tizm73nml0pv0ff0/Συζήτηση_χρήστη:Geraki/Πρότυπο:Κουτί_πληροφοριών_ποδοσφαιρικού_συλλόγου format, then it should appear somewhere in the page to be copied...

Another example is the way Wikidata displays its own pages: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Q1071. Again, the link text is created on the fly from the entity label, linking to the unique url, and the id just follows it.

The goal is to remplace all cases displaying UUID by something readable. Other cases work and will not be changed as far as I know about. I'll ask.

> If we would use the Topic:Tizm73nml0pv0ff0/Συζήτηση_χρήστη:Geraki/Πρότυπο:Κουτί_πληροφοριών_ποδοσφαιρικού_συλλόγου format, then it should appear somewhere in the page to be copied...

I'm not sure to understand. That permalink is already available in the "..." menu?

> Another example is the way Wikidata displays its own pages: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Q1071. Again, the link text is created on the fly from the entity label, linking to the unique url, and the id just follows it.

Good point. We can copy by that system to improve Special:WhatLinksHere if we decide not to change Flow's URLs.

> That permalink is already available in the "..." menu?

A permalink is a url. The intended use it to give you a url that can be copied and pasted. But then, it will already be url encoded.

You can test the same concept in any wiki page, for example elwiki village pump. Copy the address from the sidebar link "Permanent link" and paste it anywhere. It is https://el.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B9%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1:%CE%91%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AC&oldid=6223875

For this reason users in some wikis use a user script to cut the title part from the url, since it is not really meaningful, it is not really used in this case, and https://el.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=6223875 is equally valid and shorter.

The Collaboration team has discussed about that issue.

That browser URL-encoding for non-Latin script is problematic, but it is already broken on non-Flow pages, like on the example you are pointing out.

The 2016 community wishlist has an item about Section heading URLs for non-Latin languages (choice #3). That may solve the problem. Meanwhile, we can hold the deployment of the new Flow URLs on non-Latin scripted wikis, if a change happen.

We are still investigating.

I don't want to encourage further Flow development, but if you're going to do this anyway, I guess I may as well comment.

All of the proposals basically amount to expanding the format with arbitrary redundant text. You're basically just changing [[Topic:T47jqwe15hsw3ai0]] to [[Topic:T47jqwe15hsw3ai0|Readable Name]]. Oh look! It already works! Topic:T47jqwe15hsw3ai0 becomes Readable Name! The proposals here don't do much to improve on that.

Instead of a big garbage string UUID, how about this:

• If Pagename(separator)Topic is currently unique, then just use it! This is doable, even if you have to do a database lookup on the readable title to obtain your internal UUID.
• If Pagename(separator)Topic is already in use, append a micro unique ID like this: Pagename(separator)Topic(separator)1. Again this is doable, even if you have to do a database lookup on that URL to obtain your internal UUID. There would have to be 38(?) identically named topics on the page before you needed a two character micro ID. There would have to be 1298(?) identical topics on the page before you needed three characters of garbage in the unique ID.

Benefits

• The URL is 100% human readable. Even the micro unique ID is mostly of human-meaningful. It's a counter for the reused topic name. If the same article is proposed for deletion 3 times, the ID on the URL is absolutely clear, meaningful, and important. It clearly shows that this is the article's third deletion discussion. The ID only gets fuzzy when you move from digits to letters, and it doesn't get ugly until it's more than one character.
• The URL has zero redundant bloat added to it.
• The large majority are unique to start with. They can be blindly typed by a human who knows the pagename and topicname.
• Even if the topic name is a repeat, a human can blindly add a separator and 1 to guess the actual URL. In the worst case someone could even start incrementing the 1, manually searching for the desired address.

The only downside I can see is that you may need a database access to grab your internal UUID. A database access is an excellent trade off for better human usability. Currently busy topics will be cache hits anyway, minimizing the cost.

Followup: The link to the 4th comment on a duplicate topicname could potentially be:

Pagename(separator)Topic(separator)1(different separator)4.

Thank you for your feedback. We will consider your idea.