Template talk:ShippedWithBlueSpice

Was is the intention of this template? Similar to the WMF template "OnWikimedia" (see extension cite: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite) it is the intention to give extension pages a marker, that this extension is used in bundles and distributions. So developers get a feedback that their extensions are on "best off" lists. Users get the impression, that this extension is somehow a standard. And the community (including WMF) learns to know which extensions they should keep in mind if they are changing technological structures.

Of course it is also an "advertisement" for BlueSpice, but as explained elsewhere, it does not have to be in the long run. And we have used the template very sparingly for these reasons as well. The previous version should be revised. And because of the current deletion discussion, we have now stopped further distribution.

I find the feedback in the discussion so far very productive. There is the idea to replace this banner with a more general "used by" template that names several distributions, bundles and projects. Maybe even with an RfC in advance.

From that point of view, the deletion would be automatic once the improved template is available.

Whether or not this template should be deleted, let me note that "very sparingly" doesn't seem accurate - according to WhatLinksHere, this template has been added to 367 pages, representing maybe 100 different extensions.

Oo. I was not aware of that. Obviously, I wasn't up to date. But then it also shows that a new template will mean work. Every distribution has to make and maintain entries for more than a hundred pages.

Well, only those distributions that have more than a hundred extensions.

Currently 69 extensions.

Creating a new, more generic "used by" template could be a solution. Until this exists, I vote for removing Template:ShippedWithBlueSpice. This would give every distribution the same fair chance of starting from scratch.

And what's your contribution?

I can also live without any "used by" template. If you want to keep this kind of template, do it in a fair manner and rework the existing template.

Hello, everyone, as the person ultimately responsible for the template, I also agree that the template may be deleted. It was not the intention to get on people's toes here. In fact I misjudged the effect. 1. My colleague Margit deleted the content of the template earlier, so that the banner is no longer visible once the cache has been cleared. 2. If we delete the template, can an admin help us to remove the entries with ReplaceText? Or what is the procedure here? 3. I have a proposal for a new "UsedBy" template. Where and in what context should it be discussed if this page is deleted? (if somebody will take a first look: https://en.wiki.bluespice.com/wiki/File:Draft_Template_UsedBy.jpg)

Extension:ReplaceText isn't installed on Wikimedia wikis but I can remove the template using AutoWikiBrowser.

For the new template, I believe Project:Current issues would be the best place to start a discussion.

OK. Perfect. Thank you!

Richard - nice mockup! I would just create a page in the main namespace for this proposal, like 'Proposed "Used by" template', or any other name - put the explanation for your proposed template there, and then we can go from there.

Personally, I considered it positive, as a kind of advertisement, that this template was added to a extension is maintain. However, I like the idea of a generalized version convering all kind of vendors.

The discussion about a generalized version will now continue on Project:Current issues, as this thread is now finished with the removal of this template. Thanks everyone for your time, ideas and critizism!

@94rain: Why did you undelete this? This discussion shows a pretty clear consensus to delete the template to me.

I didn't realize there existed a deletion discussion when I deleted the page. When I saw this thread, I restored the page immediately without reading through the dicussion.

There is indeed clear consensus, but I think I'd better not act on it again. I am fine with you or any other admin deleting it.

I removed the template and all subpages per consensus. I'm leaving this talk page alone since it might be useful for creating the new used by template but I have no objections if anyone else wants to delete it.

Lets be real, this is not "to help people". It is advertisement.

I am not happy to have bluespice adds on extensions I maintain. And not happy to have them on other extensions either, unless we have similarly prominent adds for Professional.Wiki there. Though I do not think this would be appropriate at all on MediaWiki.org.

Talk about alternative solutions is nice, but I'd like to see the current stuff removed immediately. Maybe something can then be put back once there is a more reasonable solution.

Hi Jeroen, I see your point. The template is to be deleted. I have made a first proposal for an alternative that could fit for all involved parties. But this has to be discussed and improved of course. Where and how?

Hi, did I understand correctly that all usages and the template itself should be removed?

Hi Majavah. Yes! But please see first my response in "Deletion discussion" just now.

Why is advertisement like this accepted? There are a number of other MediaWiki distributions on the market like semantic::core or Professional.Wiki. Shall all of them be mentioned?

Yes of course! It is usefull for user and maintainers to know, which extensions are used in distributions. The developers usually do not get feedback that their extensions are important. The users do not know which extensions are standards. And the community (including WMF) does not know which extensions they should keep in mind. So I would really appreciate, if semantic::core and others would do the same. We could then also make a template that includes all these distributions.

I have to agree with this. I don't see how it benefits someone interested in some extension to know that the extension is also available in some package - especially since BlueSpice is not that easily downloaded, and requires entering an email address (if not more). I'm fine with having a category for BlueSpice extensions (and any other package), but a banner ad like this seems like too much.

Oh, I didn't see Richard's comment while I was writing my response. Richard - I agree that there should be better ways of identifying extensions considered useful, but a banner ad for BlueSpice doesn't seem like the best way to do it. (Inclusion in a single package does not by itself indicate that an extension is important or "standard".) If you want to create something more generic, though, that could be interesting. Maybe we should talk about it.

I don't think it's wise to add banners like this for each "distribution". Especially for important / most wanted extensions like Page Forms or Semantic MediaWiki this would easily end up in a stack of banners at the bottom of the page.

Hi Yaron, just a short remark in advance: all our extensions are free for download even without a mail address. Also our Free was always available without mail address via sourceforge or the website. After the relaunch the latter may give the impression that you have to store data for a newsletter. I am very, very unhappy with this and we are changing this within the next days, I think. We also unravel the extensions further, so that they are easier to handle for other developers. It took us months of work to take it all apart, but we like to do it and we will continue to do so, so that the return to the community is given.

But now to the main topic: We'd be happy to talk about the sense and form of a reference of the usage of single extensions in bundles. First of all, the meaning of an extension cannot be derived from its use in distributions alone. I completely agree with you. But if an extension is included in three / four bundles, this is certainly a statement that this extension deserves special attention. And I do think, for example, that an extension like PageForms or Maps should get a batch, that they should be included in "best-of" or "business-critical" or "mission-critical" collections. The more people do that, the faster we get something like "standards".

But in the end, I don't care: If people don't want this on their expansion page, they can take it down. If it's generally seen as a problem rather than an opportunity for developers and users, we'll take it down everywhere tomorrow.

But probably it just doesn't have the right form yet. We have not yet been able to discuss this either. There is criticism that this is too much "advertising" for BlueSpice. It could easily lose its advertising character, if we make this template more neutral: for example "Template:ShippedWith" and then you can check in which distributions this extension is used or available (WikiWorks, Wikia, Professional.wiki, semantic::core ...) and it might just appear a small icon, like the references to supported operating systems that you see everywhere. I also think it would be good if we could also record whether an extension is played in Wikipedia or other non-profit sites. What do you think?

@Alexander: I agree with the "stack of banners" problem. An intergated template, like in my last post, could be a solution that does not visually overload the site and actually represents the diversity of the bundles. Semantic MediaWiki is of course always meant ;-) Shall we tackle this and would you join in so that this does not remain just a discussion?

It's good to hear that the email address requirement is going away! Or that it never actually existed.

I really like the idea of a "shipped with" template - or maybe even a "used by" template, which could include packages, wiki farms, consulting company recommendations, that kind of thing. (Maybe even Wikimedia, if they were willing to switch to that from using their own banner.) Especially since there is no real other way to know which extensions are widely used and which are not (there is WikiApiary, but I don't think many people know about it). It would also give some advertising to those packages, farms, companies, etc., which I think is fine if it doesn't overload the screen.

I think this should be a broader discussion also with the community as the three of us (as someone doing business based on MediaWiki) are somehow biased.

Some has to start. If you ask everybody, nothing will happen. Thanks to your intervention we have a deletion discussion now. So we have to do anything. I think, we have some ideas, which we can go ahead.

A broader discussion (maybe even an RfC), while probably not necessary, sounds like a good idea. Who wants to create this thing?

Oh, I missed Richard's response before. I could go either way on the discussion thing. It's true that it's not necessary, and even if we do have a discussion, it might be easier to do once there is already something in place to discuss. Richard - how about you (or someone from your team) try creating the more generic template, and we'll see how it looks?

Now you were faster, Yaron. :-) That's exactly what I was about to suggest. If no one else comes forward, I will make a proposal which we can then discuss further. It's just that I'm actually on vacation right now, so it'll take a few days. I think this could be a template where other projects can "sign up". One would only have to document this accordingly.

On the pages for BlueSpice it is surely useful to mention the extensions it includes. Vice versa on pages for the extensions it isn't of help for anyone who wants to learn about an extension itself. The template rather looks like advertisement. Do I miss any reason not to remove it from the extension pages?